Dziemianowicz-Bąk: This is how we’re going to trash the Polish labor market
Today, people working for Uber or similar platforms are not guaranteed minimum wages, have no insight or influence over the operation of the algorithms that regulate their work, and are excluded from a number of labor laws. This will end,” says Labor Minister Agnieszka Dziemianowicz-Bąk.
Jakub Majmurek: How will the labor minister spend Labor Day?
Agnieszka Dziemianowicz-Bąk: On Labor Day, the Minister of Labor will celebrate with working people, with trade unions – I will participate in the traditional march organized by the All-Poland Alliance of Trade Unions, as in previous years. With me the first of May without change, the novelty will be that for the first time in a very long time the labor minister will take part in the May Day parade.
Labor Day has had virtually no state celebrations for a long time. Are there any ideas on how to emphasize its statehood?
I think the presence of a government representative at the celebration is a clear signal that we remember that this is a national holiday. We have workers’ rights and trade union rights enshrined in the Constitution, and Labor Day is a good opportunity to remind ourselves that the democratic Polish state in its modern form was built through the efforts of those who fought for workers’ rights – namely, trade unions.
The first of May, however, is not just a holiday of historical significance for me. Its meaning is not just to celebrate something that happened in the past – it is a celebration of change, progress, development, allowing us to combine the joy of civilizational achievements of the past with the chance to present the future of the working world.
What, then, is the responsible ministry’s vision for the future of work, and what concrete progress can workers in Poland expect in the near future?
We stand at the threshold of challenges and transformations of civilizational significance. The changes brought by artificial intelligence, for example, could have effects on the scale of the industrial revolution. And not only with regard to work, but also to all aspects of our social life. Added to this are the challenges of demographics, climate issues – we are facing a civilizational change for which the working world must be ready.
So we should boldly set goals and not be afraid to discuss how to reach them, because it’s where change begins. That’s why I’m so keen on the discussion of reducing weekly working hours. Because in view of the coming changes and challenges, this would be the next step in civilization after the introduction of the eight-hour workday.
Is the ministry taking any specific action around this at this time?
Two proposals have been articulated so far in the public discussion: A 35-hour work week and a four-day work week. At the moment, we at the ministry are conducting analyses together with the Central Institute for Labor Protection, which of these two solutions is better suited to the organization and labor law in Poland, and which of them should be developed.
Rather, these preliminary analyses tend to make us less inclined to develop the concept of a four-day workweek, if only because it is easier to apply to a shift system. It also makes more sense in terms of securing an extra day for rest and recuperation. It also seems to me to be a solution that is less prone to abuse and harder to get around. But we’re also looking at the 35-week workweek, and checking how similar programs work in other countries. Because this leap in civilization, if it is to be truly successful, must be well prepared.
It is also good for the public to be prepared for it.
Of course, changes of this scale must be widely consulted. Employees must be assured that a reduction in working hours does not mean a reduction in wages – as this is a common concern today. For employers, we want to show the benefits of hiring a more rested and less stressed employee. Because it is not the time an employee spends at work that determines his or her effectiveness.
Only this argument won’t work in the case of retail or services, where, if a store or restaurant is open one day a week less, it will mean a drop in revenue that is unlikely to be compensated for by the eventual increased efficiency of employees.
After all, a four-week workweek does not mean that everything in the economy is to be open only four days a week. In addition, questions about the efficiency of a cashier, for example – how many customers he serves in an hour, whether he is perceived by them as polite and helpful – are perfectly legitimate. Also, more efficient work in trade and services translates into profit for the entrepreneur. And the impact on the efficiency of a cashier or waiter is whether he is rested at work, whether he does not make mistakes, whether stress does not impair the quality of his work. Because the fact that it worsens his health, his relationships with loved ones, that it affects his overall quality of life, is clear. And we should not consider it the norm. But even from a purely business perspective – it’s more profitable for employers to hire unfired employees than burned-out ones.
Sure, when consulting such a change, one must also take into account the specifics of certain sensitive industries. Changes should also be made gradually. It makes sense to start with pilot programs and incentives for companies. In many other countries, companies taking part in such pilot programs on reducing the work week have stayed with the solutions tested in them after the trial ended, having found it worthwhile.
How do the Left’s partners in government view the reduction in working hours? This topic even stood up in the deliberations of the Council of Ministers?
Adoption of the bill by the Council of Ministers is the final stage of government work. But among the members of the government, as much as possible, there are people who are open to the subject, because there is both an awareness and an expectation to analyze the challenges associated with the development of new technologies and demographic changes. These topics will also be raised during the Polish presidency of the Union, which begins in the first half of 2025. Demands to launch pilot programs to reduce working hours were raised in the election campaign not only by the Left, but also by the KO. So there is both something to talk about and a climate for such a conversation.
How does a leftist labor minister fare in a rather center-right government, anyway?
Entering the coalition government, I was able to define my role – or the role of the Left in general – in two ways. Either as a brake on right-wing ideas, or as an initiator of left-wing changes. I chose the latter. Because, of course, sometimes we have to say that we can’t agree on this or that, but nevertheless, the essence of politics for me is to pursue goals, not just to prevent others from pursuing their own. And in order to be able to realize your goals, you need to seek the broadest possible support for them, build alliances. And that’s what I try to do every day as a leftist minister in the coalition government.
Even before my appointment, I had a meeting with Prime Minister Tusk about the plan, vision and proposals I intend to implement in the government. It was a fruitful meeting, during which we agreed that we are anxious to see that work in Poland is appreciated – as it was not during the governments of our predecessors. Labor affairs admittedly fell under the Ministry of Family and Social Policy at the time, but the word labor no longer appeared in the ministry’s name, as if labor was ashamed in the Law and Justice Party. We develop labor policy – which is something different from social policy – within the ministry. This is a very important policy, necessary if only for the state to fulfill its constitutional provision requiring it to pursue policies “aimed at full, productive employment.” After years of ceding the field in terms of labor, its organization, its conditions and actually practiced rules to the private market, it is high time for the state to take responsibility for the several million working people. This is why so many of the ministry’s projects today are being developed in the departments responsible for labor – labor market, labor law, social dialogue, which is why I personally took responsibility for their direct supervision. To put an end to the days when labor was treated in a lowly manner by the state and start treating it as a pillar of development of the state, economy and society.
When it comes to coalition partners, dialogue and sometimes dispute is natural in any coalition. We argue, we persuade, we negotiate.
Often – as is natural for the head of the labor ministry – I speak with Finance Minister Andrzej Domanski, and I must say that this cooperation is going really well. It resulted, among other things, in laws passed last week guaranteeing allowances for employees of social welfare, foster care or caregivers in public nurseries – one thousand zlotys starting in July. The entire government supported, as it were, leftist social policies.
Was there an idea that didn’t make it through?
No, the projects we have submitted so far have gained approval. We are one of the ministries, along with the Ministry of Finance and the Ministry of Development, that has submitted the most projects that have gained approval from the Council of Ministers. There are issues whose introduction requires prior discussion, but so far it is yielding good results.
With the implementation of the European Directive on the protection of whistleblowers, we were able to include issues related to labor law – so that whistleblower protection would also be extended to those reporting health and safety irregularities, cases of bullying or discrimination in the workplace. There are more projects ahead, and probably more discussions about them in the coalition.
I recently signed a proposal to the government’s legislative work list for a project counting time worked on business or civil law contracts as seniority. Until now, the state simply did not see work done in this form, treating it as time of inactivity – which was deeply unfair. This is one of the proposals aimed at “junking” the Polish labor market.
How would it be carried out?
We start by eliminating the negative consequences of many years of work on civil law contracts, such as just counting this time as seniority. We are working to strengthen the State Labor Inspectorate and equip it with instruments to effectively combat unfair employment practices.
We assume that a similar effect will come from the KPO’s assumed coverage of those working under civil law contracts under social insurance.
Work contracts will be ozusied?
Work on the introduction of this milestone from the KPO is still underway. Segmentation of the labor market is a specifically Polish phenomenon in the Union, and something must be done about it. For me, it’s important that those who work exclusively on a contract basis – which is quite common in the case of, for example, the arts and media industry, but also translators or artists – have insurance. Because today they pay neither pension nor disability nor even accident contributions. When they have an accident, they are not protected. When such a person dies, his family cannot count on a pension from the deceased. Not to mention low pensions.
In the case of artists, after all, the Professional Artist Status Act was supposed to take care of that.
It doesn’t matter what law we include these solutions in, the idea is to provide security for all working people, regardless of the form of employment – both now and for the future. So that there are no such situations in Poland that the family of someone who worked hard on work contracts cannot count on a funeral benefit in the situation of the sudden death of a loved one. So that a working person has no chance for accident benefits when something bad happens.
How we treat work contracts that, for example, accompany an employment contract, is a matter for discussion. The goal, on the other hand, is clear: to junk the labor market and secure the retirement future of workers, regardless of the form of employment.
If someone is 50 years old and has worked all his or her life on work contracts, then their ozusation now will probably, on average, ensure his or her retirement future.
I would very much like to see the period of transition and afterwards look different in Poland in terms of worker safety than it actually did. But I became Labor Minister only four months ago, and immediately set about mitigating its negative effects and working to curb the pathologies of the Polish labor market, to bring European standards to it.
Also those that are being forged right now, also with the participation of Poland, the Polish government and the ministry I head. Such as the presumption of employment. The European Parliament has just endorsed a directive on improving the working conditions of employees working for digital platforms, which obliges member states to introduce legislation to limit the circumvention of labor contracts and ease the labor market.
What will the implementation of this directive change for the average person working for Uber or any other similar platform?
Today, such people are often not employed under a contract of employment, they are treated like a business and their cooperation with the platform like B2B. They are not guaranteed minimum wages, have no insight or influence over the operation of the algorithms that regulate their work, and are excluded from a number of labor laws. It will end. But this directive is an opportunity not only for couriers, drivers or other groups of platform workers. She will improve the situation of all workers, whose rights are overlooked today because a dishonest employer pretends that they are not employees. The directive introduces a presumption of employment. When someone working for a platform declares that he is not an entrepreneur, he will be treated by the law as an employee.
It won’t hit sole proprietors who work for one client for a long time?
No, after all, there will be no compulsion to declare oneself an employee. If someone is in business and wants to do business, they will be able to continue to do so. What’s more, the presumption of employment will be rebuttable under the directive – that is, the employer will be able to dispute that an employment relationship exists. But the burden of proof will be on the platform – it will have to prove that the person who claims to be its employee is actually doing business.
We have an increasing number of migrants on the Polish labor market, including those from outside the European Union. What does the ministry plan to do to minimize the negative effects of migration on workers on the one hand, and protect the rights of non-citizen workers on the other?
We have completed at the departmental stage the work on the Law on Employment of Foreigners, it has now moved to the next stage: legislative work of the government. Its goal is to tighten the Polish labor market so that a visa scandal like in the PiS era cannot happen again. The law will curb the possibility of false employment, visa trafficking or the use of the visa system to allow unverified people into the Schengen area in any way.
Another goal is to extend consistent labor protection to all active workers in Poland, regardless of origin – which is in the interest not only of foreign workers, but also, and in fact primarily, of Polish ones. Because if we don’t want non-Polish workers to be unfair competition for Polish ones, if we don’t want them to create downward pressure on wages and worsening working conditions, then we have to grant them the same rights and labor protection as Polish workers.
The third goal is to provide workers for the Polish labor market. Because he needs them, and that’s why we should create such attractive conditions in Poland that people coming to look for work in the European Union will choose Poland.
How to achieve this goal?
Through active integration, support in learning languages, and, well, the aforementioned equal rights. We have established a new Integration Department at the ministry, working closely with the Ministry of Interior and Administration, which is responsible for migration policy. From a leftist point of view, it is crucial that, as part of integration, foreign workers learn about their labor rights in Poland, consumer rights, that they receive support in learning the language, and so on. As Poland, we have a good experience with the integration of foreign employees working in the Polish market. Just look at the situation of Ukrainian women – compared to the Czech Republic, we have much better indicators of their inclusion by the Polish labor market.
Is the leftist labor minister worried about the relatively low level of unionization?
The level of unionization is low in Poland. The level of coverage of workers by collective bargaining agreements is even lower. We want to change this, we are finalizing a new law on collective bargaining agreements, it is supposed to create incentives to make them. Because collective bargaining, trade union activities create social dialogue, provide workers with protection, and give employers stability and the ability to manage workers’ expectations. The industries where various types of violations are most common tend to be those with low levels of unionization.
Therefore, on the occasion of May First, I would encourage people to join unions. And we at the Ministry will do our best to create conditions for efficient social dialogue – for both employers and employees.
Trade unionists often complain about how difficult it is to organize a strike in Poland, that under Polish law it is virtually impossible to do a solidarity strike legally. Should that change?
The Law on Industrial Disputes is certainly very complicated and not always in line with modern realities. E.g., to the corporate employment structure or distributed employment, to the specifics of working in new professions, such as the aforementioned online platforms. And it’s worth the effort.
But an even more pressing problem, in my opinion, is something else: in the Polish public debate, labor law violations are often not treated as lawbreaking at all. This can be seen, for example, in how rarely the prosecutor’s office has chosen in recent years to either initiate or not initiate criminal proceedings in labor cases. It’s as if labor law, even if the regulations state otherwise, only regulates private disputes between disputes to be resolved in a labor court or civil court. A lot of work awaits us to reverse this thinking. But Labor Day, celebrated in the first year of a government that is restoring the rule of law, is a good opportunity to remind people that labor law is law. And it must be obeyed.
What is the ministry doing to better enforce labor laws?
In addition to the systemic strengthening of the PIP, we need to organize the regulations so that there are adequate consequences for breaking them, which the employer will not be able to pass on to the employee. For example, failure to pay wages on time – today the consequences are borne by the employee who gets paid late. That’s not fair. We will be sorting out this issue in the next minimum wage law. It will include suggestions on what to do about employers who are late in paying wages. In the spirit of the aforementioned change in mentality: the recognition that labor law is a law that must be obeyed.
The great challenge for the future of work will be a green transformation that will transform entire industries and entire regions. Is the ministry working on solutions to avoid situations we remember from the 1990s? With mass unemployment and the decline of old industries?
The green transition must be socially just, not a green shock doctrine. We need to ensure that workers’ interests are protected. Shield programs, investment in job creation and retraining of employees working in the coal industry, for example, are needed.
The Ministry of Labor is already developing some strategies here?
The green transformation strategy is primarily the responsibility of the Ministry of Industry and and Climate and Environment. From the labor minister’s perspective, safeguarding the interests of workers is essential, and I will keep an eye on it.
The labor ministry is not included in this strategic discussion?
It is, and it presents exactly this position in it.
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Agnieszka Dziemianowicz-Bąk – Polish Minister of Family, Labor and Social Policy, Left MP, social activist and scientist. She was a member of the National Board of the Together Party for more than three years. One of the organizers of the Black Protest. In 2016, she was named to Foreign Policy magazine’s annual FP Top 100 Global Thinkers list. In 2018. defended her doctoral thesis at the Institute of Philosophy of the University of Wroclaw.
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